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Post by DJW1066 on Feb 25, 2019 12:21:48 GMT
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Post by distractedmom on Feb 25, 2019 18:35:15 GMT
Interesting! I’m intrigued by her assertAtion that handwriting is relatively recent thing...only 150 years old. Unless I read that wrong. Hmmmm.
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Post by Gary S on Feb 25, 2019 21:10:02 GMT
I think they mean among us common rabble. There have been scribes for thousands of years but it was fairly rare for someone of non noble birth to be able to read and write. The concept that every child should receive an education was pretty revolutionary to be honest. The idea of a scribe that would write a letter for a fee was fairly common even here in the US well into the 19th century.
I had never thought about the fact that you could look at cursive writing in the same way as Morse code but it does make sense. Kids can still write but just not in joined together fashion. I had trouble with reading Spencerian script on old documents when I first encountered it years ago and although I did learn to read it almost as easily as the Zaner-Bloser method I was taught I'm not out actively campaigning to bring back Spencerian script before it's lost to today's youth.
I personally print 99.9% of the time but as a few unlucky souls learned this February I can still write in cursive. It ain't pretty but it's passable and I noticed it did get a bit better with practice. I've printed almost exclusively since 1987 so that's not bad for something I haven't used in almost 32 years. Truth is I've not wrote in cursive far longer than I ever did.
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Post by radellaf on Feb 26, 2019 4:05:35 GMT
Statements like this one really grind my gears:
Since when is unjoined writing not "handwriting"? Put it down by calling it "printing" or whatever, it does the same or better job.
I'd be all for teaching _legibility_, joined or unjoined, as that's what's important now more than speed. Not that I ever found cursive or other fully-joined scripts to be any faster than non or only partly joined letters. Conventional cursive can die a fiery death for all I care. I resented having to learn it, being lied to about it (the only valid signature...), and I still resent the teachers only accepting cursive writing in whatever grade that was. If it's not handwriting class, then judge the content of the writing, so long as it's legible. Grr.
Learning to _read_ it is another matter, and a much easier course of study.
edit: just read the comments and one of my favorites, Kate Gladstone, wrote this:
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Post by Gary S on Feb 26, 2019 4:56:07 GMT
I still resent the teachers only accepting cursive writing in whatever grade that was. If it's not handwriting class, then judge the content of the writing, so long as it's legible. Grr. It's a control issue. My English teachers always insisted they had to grade "penmanship" as well as the content of my paper but my math and science teachers had no problem with my using printing on assignments in their classes. I liked to debate the English teachers about the fact that "penmanship" encompassed all forms of handwriting and that it was teachers who first taught me printing before moving on to cursive. It's impossible to win those debates when they are always moving the goalposts when you score points in an argument but it never stopped me. I often talk to my dogs and cats as well and they pretty much do as they please just like those English teachers I've known. I know back when I was still in school folks sneered at printing as being childish but conversely when I studied engineering clear and concise print was the only acceptable means of communication that engineers were allowed to use. * Before some English teacher pops in to chastise me my Mom was a school teacher for 20+ years until she retired. She taught English as well as other subjects and I argued with her over cursive writing just as I did my high school English teachers. Both my father and I printed but then we were in more technical jobs and it was expected. Cursive is all well and good but it isn't the only form of written communication nor the best. If that were true books would be printed in cursive font. It is possible now even if would have been more difficult years ago.
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Post by distractedmom on Feb 26, 2019 23:36:33 GMT
Just popping in here to say that when I read the article, I wasn't reading it as "cursive." Printing is a form of handwriting, in my opinion. I've been the recipient of both Gary S and radellaf printed letters and I still consider that unique handwriting. Even though you both print, your printing is very different. The uniqueness is what I love, cursive, print or some Frankenstein in between (which is what mine really is.)
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Post by although on Feb 27, 2019 6:08:53 GMT
Interesting! I’m intrigued by her assertAtion that handwriting is relatively recent thing...only 150 years old. Unless I read that wrong. Hmmmm. Well, she said it's only been a "widespread" activity for about 150 years. That sounds about right to me. I read some history about the Spencer guy who came up with Spencerian script. I recall that he was doing this during a time when Penman was a white collar career choice. Most folks either farmed or worked in a factory. The industrial age was kicking off at the time, and folks (who weren't necessarily wealthy) started getting more free time do do things that weren't just for survival. I suppose it depends on how you define "widespread". But, it sounds about right to me.
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Post by radellaf on Feb 28, 2019 6:28:27 GMT
It's a control issue. My English teachers always insisted they had to grade "penmanship" as well as the content of my paper It made sense for the cursive class but, yeah. I was willing to learn their cursive enough to show I could write it, and I was pretty good at it, but I just didn't like it and wasn't willing to use it in general for assignments in other classes. Fortunately I had supportive parents and they eventually got them to drop the requirement. Legibility is key, to me. I guess I just don't go along with there being only two ways of writing letters: "print" and "cursive." I guess they needed two words to talk about the two forms they taught, but even then there was calligraphy. I never liked the term "printing" because I started using computers in like 5th grade and the word seemed ill-fitting for something written by hand. What was really funny is, in the late 1980s, I had to get "special dispensation" to submit English assignments printed with a dot-matrix printer. The excuse was it might not be legible. Um... average high school handwriting vs a computer? Sure, laser printers have a more polished look, but if you can't read 9-pin dot matrix text then there's a problem. I prefer the terms "unjoined" and "joined", or "partially joined", to describe the range of handwriting people use outside of grade-school. Engineering writing is a distinct style. I can sorta do it, but never formally learned it as I started college in 1992 the year after they dropped drafting as a requirement for electrical engineering. All through college I wrote very quickly and came up with my own form of semi-joined writing. Towards the end of college I was frustrated with how Waterman and Lamy "M" nibs filled in the gaps of some letters, so practiced Italic handwriting with the "Write Now!" book. It pretty much worked, though I'm still not a fan of Euro Medium nibs. I tried to get into the fully-joined italic but, frankly, it seemed to be more effort, wasn't any faster, and was a lot less legible. So, anyway... the idea that unjoined writing either isn't handwriting, or is in some way inferior, bugs me. I see it a lot in these "death of cursive" articles. There were also some about learning retention that I think distinguished "print vs cursive", but didn't address the fact that it's pretty common to use something in-between. I'd also be curious if the speed you write has anything to do with it. Now, there is one big advantage to cursive. Paper that won't lay flat is easier to deal with, since the pen point holds it down, and it's not springing up with every letter. It's also better if you have one of those baby's bottom nibs that doesn't want to start all the time. With cursive, that's a once-a-word issue instead of once-a-letter.
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